Speaker 1: 0:05

It's hard. I think I can still deal with it. But it's like for me I always say to like just going through some of the things I've been through, like I kind of developed alligator skin so a lot of things don't bother me, but it's like there are moments where I just get tired of hearing that stuff, like because I don't think money solves all of our problems, because we have people be like I know he happy this and that. What makes you think I'm happy right now?

Speaker 2: 0:37

Hi friends, this is Read and Write with Natasha podcast Natasha podcast. My name is Natasha Tynes and I'm an author and a journalist. In this channel I talk about the writing life, review books and interview authors. Hope you enjoy the journey. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Read and Write with Natasha. I'm so excited to have with me today Bion Patrick, who is a wrongful conviction survivor author and a community advocate.

Speaker 2: 1:12

In 1992, he was coerced into confessing to a double murder in Chicago and spent 21 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. 21 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. He was exonerated in 2014, and a federal jury later awarded him $13.4 million in damages for the civil rights violation he endured. Dion now dedicates his life to community work, justice reform and sharing his story to inspire hope and change. He's the co-author of the Hazel Boys the Trials of Four Innocent Men, a memoir that chronicles the resilience of four wrongfully convicted men and the systemic failures that stole years of their lives. Wow, what a story. Dion, thank you for joining me. I'm so sorry to hear about what happened to you. It's really horrible and unjust, but I'm glad eventually you got exonerated. So, dion, I think my first question is if you can take us back to 1992 and tell us what you remember about that day and the false confession us what you remember about that day and the false confession.

Speaker 1: 2:31

If I go back to the day of the actual event, I just think like at that time I was a 20 year old kind of lost individual, making very important decisions with my life and mismanaging what was going on in my life at the time, hanging out in the neighborhood with friends and guys from the neighborhood, and for me it was like a normal day. And unfortunately, a very tragic event happened in our neighborhood where two people were tragically murdered. When it all happened, like we were coming back around because people were calling us telling us that two of our friends had gotten killed. So we was actually coming back to the crime scene and trying to figure out who had got hurt or what had happened. So a couple of weeks go by, I guess the police are doing their investigation or whatever they're doing, and they hadn't come up with any suspects or leads. So they say but I think like November 29th, I think, is where everything started to change for everybody, because November 29th they wrote a police report saying close this case after our day is off. And when they got on the stand in the future and people would ask them on November 29, because you guys have any suspects, they were adamantly say no. Yet on November November 29, they started ordering pictures of me and my friends to show after they round us up to each other and have us pick people out that we hang with. And so I think it started December the 2nd, which was actually their day off. After that was the day they came back to work. So that was after their days off, and they started with a 15-year-old kid named Louis Gardner, who had an IQ of like 66, 67. So they considered him like borderline handicapped or retarded. They put him in a room and they had him like pick out people that he hanged within the neighborhood and say what their names was. For the most part he didn't know any of our real names, so he was just saying nicknames of what we went by, and from there they ended up being eight of us.

Speaker 1: 4:43

On this case. That was one 15-year-old, two 17-year-olds, two 19-year-olds I was 20. There was a 22-year-old and a 32-year-old which none of us knew Like. We saw him in the neighborhood passing through and coming around, but we didn't hang with him. We didn't know him because there was a huge age disparity, so this wasn't a friend of ours. So they separated us, put us all in different rooms, mentally abused, majority of us, physically abused, some of us, um, and from there, like everything started to spiral out of control.

Speaker 1: 5:22

Like you had, guys were making court reporter statements in front of the court reporters and state attorneys, and then you had three of us, which was myself, one of the 19 year olds and the 22 year old. We ended up with handwritten statements that was handwritten by them. They weren't handwritten by us, but they were handwritten by them. But we did sign them to get out of that room and move on to the next step and hopefully get around somebody who actually wants to know the truth and that was trying to figure out the truth. So, after being at the police station for I went into the police station December the 2nd I didn't leave until December the 5th. That's when I was taken to Cook County Jail with two more of my co-defendants and from there the process of fighting the case and filing motions to try to come home and stuff like that began for us.

Speaker 2: 6:18

Okay. So how did you confess? How did you make you confess? Because of the emotional and physical abuse? Or was your confession a written statement only? Or or did you actually tell them that you, you, you were part of the murder?

Speaker 1: 6:35

It was. It was written, and it was written by the actual state's attorney who came to the police station at the time. And I think what happened for me? I don't I don't have a claim of being physically beaten, because when I first got there I asked to speak to my lawyer because I had a lawyer that I knew who had defended me on some other cases that I had before. So I think that kind of pulled them back from actually touching me because they felt like he's going to see a lawyer soon because he gave us a number for a lawyer, he gave us a name for a lawyer that matches and he has to know this person. So I think, more so for me it was mental, because they started bringing guys in my room and they like who was that? And they like that's Deion, and they like what did he do? Oh, he was the one that shot these people.

Speaker 1: 7:22

So I think at some point, like after not eating, being sleep deprived and things like that, I started to almost second guess myself, like what is going on here? And I'm trying to. I don't use drugs, I don't drink, so I'm trying to figure out why are these so-called friends of mine coming in this room saying that this is something that I did, but it was so. It gets so deep. Like we had a guy, daniel Taylor, that was on the case with us, who was one of my co-authors right, he was in police custody the day these murders happened and they took him in the room and beat him to the point where he confessed to being there, where he said that he was actually holding someone while I murdered him, where he said that he was actually holding someone while I murdered him, but their police records show that he couldn't have possibly been there because he was in their custody at the time that this murder happened. And so it was just a lot of that going on, where they were pitting us against each other.

Speaker 1: 8:16

And then they'll come and be like but if you don't say something to say yourself, you're going to death row and they're going to kill you, you're going to get the lethal injection, you're going to die. And so to death row and they're going to kill, you're going to get the lethal injection, you're going to die. And so it was really like a lot of scare tactics and we were young men who thought we were grown and was pretending to be grown. We really were a lot of boys in those rooms that had nobody there to really protect us at the time or to guide us through that situation and I think at some point, like I was just broken to the point where I just wanted to get out of there, like cause I came to the realization that they weren't listening. So it's like I want to go somewhere else. Let's, maybe someone will listen to what we're saying.

Speaker 2: 8:53

Wow, and so there, there was a trial and you were found guilty immediately. There were no appeals, nothing, or how was the trial?

Speaker 1: 9:07

Well, I had a trial.

Speaker 1: 9:09

And if I had to say so today, I feel like my lawyer did everything possible for me to go home that day. So I never took the stand because we didn't feel like they proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. So we left it in the hands of the jury. I was found guilty. I filed my appeals. I want to say it got denied around 1998. I got found guilty in 1995. 1998, my first appeal got denied. Then I filed post convictions and I think over the course of time we were always trying to find something that we could file that would get us back in court. So I ended up leaving with two naturalized 60 and 30. Daniel Taylor left with naturalized Most of the time. We were incarcerated because he did 20 years before he came home and I did 21. We were around each other so we were constantly reaching out to different lawyers and people to try to help us.

Speaker 1: 10:07

Media outlets, which the Chicago Tribune, came into our life around 1998, right after Daniel got done, and we met a reporter named Steve Mills who just decided that after talking to us and looking over some of the evidence, like we shouldn't be there and he was like I'm not leaving you guys until you guys are home. So I'm gonna find whatever I need to find to prove to these people that you guys didn't do this right. And so steve was there all the way through. Uh, a couple of years later, daniel was introduced to the Center for Wrongful Conviction from Northwestern Law School and we met an attorney named Karen Daniel. May she rest in peace. Unfortunately, she was hit by a car. Since we've been home and died. But she was like our angel, like from nowhere, like she came into our life and really like just buckled down and was like pressing the issue as far as daniel couldn't have been there. Every statement they had had daniel's name in the same pivotal role that they said he was in.

Speaker 1: 11:14

So if he couldn't be there, how did y'all get these confessions from these guys and say to say that they were there doing something with him when he was in custody? Because I want to say the murder happened. Daniel may have got arrested around 550 something that day. The murder happened around 8 43. Daniel didn't get out of jail to 10 o'clock but they beat him because he does have a claim that he's had since the day we went to jail that he was beaten into that confession and the irony in it is. After he made his confession they put him down in lockup but he was able to not be pressured and be able to sit down and think and he asked for them and they came down and he told them like I couldn't have been there that day, I was in jail the day that happened. So they went to their little database and they looked him up and they didn't see him because he hadn't been to court yet. They thought he was lying. So they kept pressing the case and they sent us to the county.

Speaker 1: 12:14

This was December the 5th, december the 8th or the 9th. They write another police report saying we found an arrest report with Daniel Taylor's name on it Saying he didn't get out until 10 o'clock. What should we do? But by this time we're in the county jail already. So their superior officer directed them like there's nothing y'all can do because if y'all take him off the case, y'all got to take everybody off the case, because all of their statements say the same thing or similar. They're very similar. Some of them mix up a little bit because people were trying to minimize their roles, but they all had the same names and the same players in it. So he just didn't feel like they should take him on and then try to defend a case with us on it, and he's not anymore.

Speaker 2: 13:00

So he also went to prison, Daniel.

Speaker 1: 13:02

Yes, daniel, daniel ended up getting natural life and it took 20 years for him to come on. Oh, so he also went to prison, daniel.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Yes, daniel, daniel ended up getting out for life and it took 20 years for him to come home. Oh geez, so you spent 21 years in prison. I know that's, you know, like a really long time, and again, sorry about what happened to you. What was the hardest part of being in prison for 21 years?

Speaker 1: 13:27

I think the hardest part for me was I had very little kids at the time.

Speaker 2: 13:32

Little, what Little kids, kids. Kids, ah, babies.

Speaker 1: 13:38

Ah, you had babies, okay, yes, when I left, my daughter was eight months old and my son was 11 months old and they having to watch them grow up from there and go through some of the stuff that they went through was, to me, the hardest part about not being able to be out and support them or be the dad that I feel like every kid deserves and a lot of us don't get. But I just feel like for me that was the hardest part just being away from my family and my kids.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Did they come visit? Were they able to come visit?

Speaker 1: 14:19

Well, I saw my son probably a lot more because he stayed in Chicago when my daughter was raised in Wisconsin, but I did actually see both of them during my stay there, so they were coming. He probably just came a little bit more than his sister because he was closer to me.

Speaker 2: 14:30

And how did you maintain hope during the 21 years? Or did you even have hope, or did you lose hope? And how many years did you get in prison? Do you get to anyone, to life or what? What was?

Speaker 1: 14:43

your, I had. We had natural life without the possibility of parole.

Speaker 2: 14:48

Oh, wow, so you were supposed to die in prison and see it.

Speaker 1: 14:51

Yes, they actually wanted me to die twice. They gave me two natural lives, 60 and 30. And the hope came from just knowing I had absolutely nothing to do with it and I just always believed one day the truth would come out. And then me and Daniel being around each other, like we kept, like even if I was having down moments he would motivate me. If he was having down moments I would tell him like he couldn't give up, Right? So it was like just knowing that we shouldn't be there, that was motivation enough for me to keep pushing to prove my innocence.

Speaker 2: 15:27

And what finally happened in 2014? That both of you, I guess, were exonerated both you and Daniel at the same time.

Speaker 1: 15:38

No, he actually went home in 2013. And I think what happened for us was Cameron Daniel, who I spoke on earlier. She had filed like a writ of habeas corpus which goes to the Illinois Attorney General's office, and the Attorney General the Assistant Attorney General at the time, who got the case told the State's Attorney's Office. I'm not filing anything on this case until I see every piece of paper that y'all have pertaining to this case right, because our case had been in the news, it had been in the newspaper for years at this time and in Chicago they had this thing called a street file and an official file. So the street file is every piece of paper that they get during their investigation. The official file is what they put in the file and turn over to the state's attorney's office, but they can't destroy neither, so they have to keep them in their archives.

Speaker 1: 16:30

I think they accidentally sent her the street file and when they sent her the street file, there were some papers in there from December we got arrested December 2nd through the 3rd of 1992.

Speaker 1: 16:45

There were some papers in there from like mid-December or right before Christmas or right after Christmas, where they sent the state's attorney to the police station and he verified that Daniel was in jail the day that this murder happened.

Speaker 1: 17:02

They never gave us those papers papers and when you're fighting a criminal case like they, have to give you everything pertaining to a case, whether it helps you or hurts you. Now it's up to you to find it, but they have to turn it over and they never turned that stuff over. So we really got exonerated based on what they call a brady violation, when they don't call a Brady violation, when they don't give you all the evidence that they gathered and by them withholding that for 19 years. The lady wrote a letter and she told Karen Daniels she like I'm not even responding to this petition until you take this back to the circuit court and deal with that, because there's no lawyer in their right mind had this evidence and didn't use it. But she had noticed that over the course of these 20 years, none of our lawyers had presented this evidence, because none of our lawyers ever had this evidence.

Speaker 2: 17:52

I see, and why do you think that happened to you? What was the reason that they hid the evidence?

Speaker 1: 17:58

Because they had. They had really like double down on a lot of things. Like once they realized Daniel was was in jail, they went and found two beat cops and had them put a police report in there saying that they saw daniel on the night of the murder at 7, 38 o'clock. He was standing on the corner, they described what he had on and all this stuff right, and that's not even human nature for a month later for me to be able to tell someone what you had on a month ago and what time I saw you right.

Speaker 1: 18:26

So, they wrote a report. They went and put drugs on two guys from our neighborhood, made them go to the grand jury and lie and say that Daniel wasn't in jail. They saw him that day right. So I think they were doing everything in their power to keep any evidence that proved Daniel was in jail, because the proof didn't come from us, it came from their own officers, because the officer who signed Daniel out they tried to put it on him. At one point he made up some shoddy paperwork. He was like my shift didn't start until 9.30. He had to be there. When I got there I signed him out at 10 o'clock. They went to the community people that worked back there. They picked Daniel out saying yeah, this guy was here that night. They found all his cellmates from that night. Every last one of them said I was in the cell with this guy that night. He left around 10 o'clock.

Speaker 1: 19:16

So it's like they didn't give it to us and I think it was intentional. I don't think it was an accident and I think one thing about Chicago is it's known as the wrongful conviction capital of the world, because that is what they do. It's a pattern of practice up there and they get elevated through the ranks by securing convictions and arrests too. So I think it motivated them. And then I think, on top of that, there's no accountability for what they do, so like they never go to jail, they don't lose their pension, they don't get fired. So it just was a pattern that they were doing to young African-American and Latino men that they felt like nobody cared about and like they were just going to go to jail and give up and not fight it no way. So I think some of us are just we don't do what they expect us to do. It's like going there and lay down and be like okay, well, I'm here, I'm not never going home, and some of us do get back out here and get the opportunity to actually tell our story.

Speaker 2: 20:18

What happened to them?

Speaker 1: 20:22

Absolutely nothing. They still collecting their pension. They just as arrogant as they were back in 1992, because I went through my civil trial. I didn't settle.

Speaker 1: 20:33

So they became the defendants and they had to get on the stand and they were asked questions. I think one of the first questions my lawyer asked them was when was the first time they heard my name? And their initial response was when we went in a room with lewis gardner with a picture of deon patrick. So he's like where did you get a picture of him from? They couldn't really explain it. So they started lying in because in order to get a picture in 1992 it it's not like today where you could say pull up a picture of him and forward it to my computer you had to order the picture. You had to get in a police car, drive to another police station to pick it up. So they ordered those pictures November the 29th. Yet you testified that on November the 29th you had no suspects. Why were you ordering pictures of me then? On November the 29th, you had no suspects. Why were you ordering pictures of me then? And so it's like they had already come up with a plan, like okay, we don't know who all did it, but we're going to grab these boys that be right here every day Because we hung on that block every day. Even after the murder, we were still on that block every day. It was like we didn't run, we didn't hide, we didn't try to stay out the area, none of that, because we knew it had nothing to do with us. So I think, like for them they had come up with a plan like this is who we're going to put this case on and, unfortunately, like we were young and wasn't strong enough to withstand what they put in front of us and that was the outcome of it Some of us, like Lewis Gardner and Paul Phillips, our other two co authors they got 30 years and they did 15 and came home. So they were home like seven years before I came home. But I don't know. I just think they just sat down one day and was like I don to clean that neighborhood up like this, we're going to grab all those little guys that be out there and we're going to put them in these, in these roles.

Speaker 1: 22:27

As to what the witness said, they saw that night, they have an eyewitness who, from day one, was adamant about I know those little boys. That's not who I saw come out of that at night. I know those little boys. That's not who I saw come out of there that night and they lied on her. They said that she said she was scared for her life and she didn't want to testify against us. Right now to this day, we did a book signing. She was there Like cause. She knows that she didn't see us come out of there that day and she told them that the guys that came out of there were older than them. They weren't 15, 17, 20. They were like 25 or older, and so they just went with their narrative and put the case on us at the time.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Wow, have they ever caught the real guys who did the murder?

Speaker 1: 23:11

No, and I say that because I think they don't want to, because when they do that then they have to actually admit that they wrongfully convicted us. So they, their stance, their position, is still that we did like don't, no matter what the evidence states, we got the right guys. And I think one thing they do ask them to like now, knowing what you know today, what would you do differently? And 85 and 90 percent of the police that get up there say I would do nothing different. I would arrest those same guys all over again.

Speaker 2: 23:43

Oh wow. How did the media deal with your case? Were they sympathetic, Were they pro or against? How was the coverage? I?

Speaker 1: 23:51

don't know if it would be considered sympathetic, but they definitely were supportive Because once they figured out and did their homework to prove to themselves that Daniel was incarcerated the day it happened, they knew that they had the wrong people. So we have numerous articles that was written over the years by the Tribune and Sun-Times Every news channel up there. Anytime we had a court date they would play like a little segment showing that we're in court that day. So we got followed, probably from 2001, until the day we came home where somebody was giving us some type of coverage and listening to us and trying to get it out to the masses where people would understand that this stuff does happen, because I think a lot of people that have never been through it be like well, how does somebody, how does somebody confess to something they didn't do?

Speaker 1: 24:40

And I don't think you could really take that position unless you've been in that room with those people dealing with them, because they put safeguards in order now in place, now where they videotape interrogations, they videotape, confess, they videotape. But I know false confessors are still happening, even with the camera watching what they're doing to these little guys, because they're trained in the art of breaking people down and getting people to feel like this is what's best for them, and you have a lot of young men that still go in those rooms today. That is making that same mistake and allowing them to tell them that someone said you did this, we know you did this and if you sign this, we'll advocate for you in court, where you don't get natural life or you don't get the death penalty, or you don't get this, and I think nobody wants to spend the rest of their life in jail nor does anyone at that time, because the death penalty has been abolished in Illinois but no one wants to die either for something they didn't do.

Speaker 2: 25:45

Well, so do you think it's still happening now the same rate that was happening in 92? Or maybe the social media and there's more awareness that it's less than what it was in 1992.

Speaker 1: 25:58

I think the rate has slowed down but the effect is being seen more because there are more guys coming home now that have been gone for 20 years, 30 years. We had a couple of brothers just came home been gone for 42 years.

Speaker 2: 26:12

They left when they was 18.

Speaker 1: 26:13

They came home at 60 years old, so it's like I think it's definitely where it's not as rapid as it was, but I still think it happens. I think some cases still slip through the cracks, where guys get in there and can't withstand what those people are doing to them and they confess to something they didn't do.

Speaker 2: 26:33

So you won a lawsuit against them, correct, yes, and rightfully so, of course and you won $13.4 million. How did that change your life? I?

Speaker 1: 26:48

don't know. I feel like it changed my life as far as where I can live and the things I can do in life, but I don't think it changed my life because I don't believe that money me personally I don't believe money changes people. I think it changes the people around you because they have greater expectations of you, right? Because I feel like I'm still the same person I was without any money. I feel like I'm the same person I was in that jail cell, like because my character is what it is, but I mean, like, have I watched people around me change?

Speaker 1: 27:22

Yes, so I think the money has definitely given me the opportunity to do more for my grandkids, be able to take care of things that I couldn't take care of at first, but I also think like there's no amount of money that could compensate for what they've taken from me either. So I don't really know what is done for me yet, but I know what I'm trying to do and I'm trying to create generational wealth for my family and my kids and then make sure it don't just touch one generation of our family.

Speaker 2: 27:53

I want to see it here forever as far as my family is concerned yeah, and what was the biggest challenge you faced when you re-entered society, when you, you know, you spent 21 years and now you're free? Um well, I'm sure there were lots of challenges, but what were the biggest ones?

Speaker 1: 28:13

definitely. I think the one thing I'll start that off by saying is I feel like I had a great support system as far as my family to help me transition back out here. But I think just finding my own apartment and getting a job because that stuff is still popping up on our background, so if they did a background check, it was still show up Right. I went and applied for an apartment before and they at least stated that you couldn't have had a felony in 101 years and I'm like whoa, so that means I had to be 120-something to get in. So it was just those type of things that really hindered me.

Speaker 1: 28:56

So what I did is I got my lawyers behind me and when I started going to like the agencies, I was taking articles and I was getting authorized letters from my lawyers showing that I was wrongfully convicted. But I think it still scares some people because you're talking about a man that was convicted of murder and that was gone for 21 years, so you don't really know how he's adapted to society or how he sees society right, and I think just getting people to let their guard down and understand that we're human and a lot of us have come home with the right mentality and we're ready to be reintegrated into society was like one of my biggest obstacles coming on and did you you mentioned people around you change?

Speaker 2: 29:38

how did you change? Because they kept asking you for money? Did you felt that they want to be your friends just because they wanted you to support them? You didn't feel they were genuine in their support. How did you deal with that?

Speaker 1: 29:50

Like for me. I always say to like just going through some of the things I've been through, like I've kind of developed alligator skin, so a lot of things don't bother me, but it's like there are moments where I just get tired of hearing that stuff Like, because I don't think money solves all of our problems, cause you have people be like oh, I know he happy this and that. What makes you think I'm happy right now? You know I still go through stuff like, but it's like can I live a certain lifestyle? Yes, but that's not going to make me happy though, because I still can't remove some of the barriers I have within myself and in my head that have happened in my life. So when people I think I get all types of calls but I think like some of them make sense and some don't like because some of the ads be so great and it's like how do you even get that back If you saying that you borrow something and you have no way of giving it back to me, like it's not a borrow here, and then people get in and be like oh, he's straight, I ain't got to get that back to him, and it's like. So I think like I don't really have.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Like I stopped using that friendship word a long time ago, right, because a lot of people that I considered to be my friend, they left me there for to me, for dead. Like I didn't get letters from them, I didn't get pictures from them, I didn't get visits from them. If I called them on the phone, it was man, we was just talking about you. But I don't feel none of that because I'm not there for that conversation. So I came home and I just stayed the course, like a lot of guys that I knew before then. I don't talk to them now and I'm not angry at them, but it's just. I understand what that relationship was now as a kid, but as a 53-year-old man, like I don't really need, like, a lot of friends. I need genuine people around me who genuinely care about me and my well-being and my mental state, right. Anything outside of that like I could really do without right now.

Speaker 2: 31:54

So if I ask you the question are you happy now?

Speaker 1: 31:57

No.

Speaker 1: 31:58

It's funny because I tell people all the time I don't even really know when. The last time I was truly happy, and I say that because I lost my mother at 16. So my life changed then and that's when a lot of my obstacles came into play, because I know what course I was on Like at the time my mother passed. My brother was 18. He was away at college, so we knew what the trajectory of our life was Like. My mother expected both of us to go to college and get a degree and move on with our life and become model citizens right.

Speaker 1: 32:34

But when she passed like, I became angry. I became disillusioned with the world, like I didn't understand it, and I used to make this statement I felt like me and God was having a misunderstanding Because I didn't understand why she left, and then I didn't understand why I was sitting in the penitentiary for something I didn't do. And now I kind of understand it a little better because I feel like why not me? When I used to say why me? Now I'll be like why not me? Because I really didn't put myself in a great position to avoid that either. So happiness is. I think I'm still trying to figure out what that looks like for me.

Speaker 2: 33:16

And.

Speaker 1: 33:17

I'm not depressed, I'm not miserable either, but it's just like I don't know what that really looks like anymore and I still like I'm comfortable, I'm content with my life. But I think I'm still seeking for a few other things that will really have me feeling like life is great, like it's beautiful. Now I'm happy and I think I'm going to be able to actually articulate when that happens for me. It just hasn't happened yet.

Speaker 1: 33:44

And then I think too, like I look back and I left a lot of guys that in them 21 years, I formed some real bonds with and I know it's a lot of guys in there that shouldn't be there. So like I get on the phone with them and they ask like man, how you doing? I always tell them I'm great because I can't get on the phone with them and be like it's messed up out here because it's messed up in there, and I'm never going to get on the phone with a guy that's in a very worse position than I am and act like my life is terrible, because my life is okay, like I'm fine. I know I'm not gonna die in a penitentiary for something I didn't do. So that's like what's my biggest fear and I'm comfortable now, but I'm definitely still trying to define what that happiness looks like for me well, I'm hoping that you'll find true happiness soon.

Speaker 2: 34:35

um damn Happiness soon, dion. So okay, I want to talk a bit about the book the Hazel Boys, and so you wrote it with the other your friends, who were actually incarcerated with you for the same crime, or? If you could tell me a bit about the book and what made you want to write it?

Speaker 1: 34:57

Well, the book really tells the story through our lens and I think, like for us, like for years, we couldn't write it because everybody still had legal stuff going on and what they were doing. They would pick bits and pieces out, like they will put you on a stand and be like what did you eat on the morning of November 16th 1992? This is 2016. They asking me this November 16th 1992. This is 2016,. They're asking me this and if I try to answer the question, they'd be like well, that's not what you said in 1992, because I really don't remember what I ate that day. I don't remember what I had on.

Speaker 1: 35:27

So we were real careful about how this book is written or when it was written, because we had their depositions and they were trying to hold us to the letter of the word and even if it's saying what we said and we add something to it, they'd be like well, you didn't say this back when you said that, because it might not be on my mind at the time.

Speaker 1: 35:48

So I think the thing with the book is it's somewhat closer for us because it's given us opportunity to tell the story the way it really happened for us, because their truth was so far from the truth.

Speaker 1: 36:00

So it's like now we actually get to tell the world that this is what really happened to us and this is it's kind of helping us close some of the wounds that we have, because some of my co -defendants I hadn't talked to for years and when I talked to Lewis, the 15 year old, like he really had isolated himself from us because for years he felt like he was the reason that we went through what we went through and he thought we was mad at him. And I'm telling him like you didn't do nothing wrong, they did that. So don't ever sit in your house and beat yourself up about something that you had no control over, we had no control over. I think that's helped him a little bit, because now he's opening up more and we're staying in touch a little bit more. So I think for us it's just trying to give us that sense of closure where we get to tell our story our way and there's not someone else telling our story for us now.

Speaker 2: 36:57

And how did you publish the book? Did you self-publish, or how did that happen?

Speaker 1: 37:02

Well, I guess it would be considered self-published, but we got help with writing it and then we had it published and put on Amazon and Barnes Noble, so we published it through that.

Speaker 2: 37:15

And how is the book doing?

Speaker 1: 37:17

It's picking up because first we really did it and we kind of didn't think about we were just targeting Chicago, and so now we're getting to talk on different parts and stuff like that all over the country, and so now things are doing better and then we're actually in talks about doing either a movie or a documentary on it. So we're just finding different ways to just keep it, keep the momentum going as far as what we're doing that's actually was it I was thinking of like a Netflix show, because there was similar cases.

Speaker 2: 37:48

Unfortunately, that got a lot of media attention and I feel like your story also deserves the same media attention that some of other cases got, and I hope you get there and you know I'm happy to support in any way I can as well. And what was the reaction to the book?

Speaker 1: 38:16

So far I feel like it's been positive. I haven't had any negative reaction because it's the truth and then I think it's not just our truth. We can pull out their paperwork that's gonna show exactly what we're saying, right? Because one thing about me like I became a hoarder and then I was a hoarder of anything that had anything to do with this case Like if I had co-defendants that didn't wanna keep paperwork that their lawyers gave them I can give it here. So I have a lot of police reports and documentation from them that shows their pattern and what they tried to do. So for the most part we got to do our book signing at the Center for Wrongful Convictions. So Northwestern welcomed us back with open arms and we were allowed to do it at the law school and I think that's like the biggest thing for me is allowing it to be a teaching tool for upcoming attorneys and lawyers, so they could always not just believe that if the police say this is what happened, this is what had to happen, like to pay attention to the science that's going on in those rooms, because no state's attorney could tell me that they didn't see anything wrong with any of us the night that this stuff, these interrogations was going on. That just didn't sit well with them. But you also have, like I said earlier, about the how they go up the ladder, and the state's attorney that showed up in our case who took he wrote my statement himself and he took daniel's court report a statement. At the time we got arrested he had been a state's attorney like two years. Our case. Who took? He wrote my statement himself and he took daniel's court reported statement. At the time we got arrested he had been a state's attorney like two years.

Speaker 1: 39:53

By the time we came home he was second in command in the cook county state's attorney's office because he always had a confession when he did a murder. And it's like, yeah, he do, because he's allowing the police to do what they want to do to people and then he's getting in cahoots with them. Ok, well, if y'all can't get him to sit in the court report in front of the court reporter, I'll write it myself and then we'll go back in there and get him to sign it. So it's like he climbed the ranks. But it's like all we've got means, like you had no truth or no facts in the stuff that you've been obtaining for all this time, and so I actually got to get him on the stand.

Speaker 1: 40:26

That's one of the things that kind of got me home too was we still painted him before I came home and they didn't want to let him take the stand because they didn't want him to get up there and lie, because then we can get him for perjury and it won't just be about me no more to become about him. And so when we asked for him the next court date, they let me go, but I still got him to get on the stand during my civil case. So I still got to question him a little bit as far as my attorneys, but he didn't get found guilty either, because he put it back on the police, like I only went off what the police told me. But that's not your job, like you're not their attorney, nor are you mine. You're there to be the trier of facts and what makes sense and what don't make sense. But he wasn't doing that.

Speaker 2: 41:13

And what reform do you think are most urgently needed to prevent wrongful convictions?

Speaker 1: 41:20

I think they have to start going to jail.

Speaker 1: 41:22

I think they have to start being held accountable for the things that they do, and especially when you can blatantly show that this was intentional Now, because I'm a firm believer that mistakes happen, but a lot of this stuff isn't mistakes, it's intentional acts, right.

Speaker 1: 41:39

And when you can go back and show that people went and wrote police reports weeks later or months later and they slid it in there with no supervisor's signature on it, like to me, those type of things should send them to warrant them going to jail. They definitely should lose their pension and should have to figure it out, like everybody else would if they did something wrong with their job. But like their life's gone. Like they retire, then they ride off into the sunset. But like their life's gone, like they retire and they ride off into the sunset, the taxpayers end up paying us, as well as their attorneys who's defending them, which will also have a million dollar tabs, right, and they don't care because none of it comes out of their pocket. So I think that there has to be a sense of accountability for them and I think that they will stop just throwing cases together and they would actually get out and do some police work and try to find the right people.

Speaker 2: 42:31

If you can speak directly to someone who's been wrongly convicted and they're in prison now for a crime they did not commit, what would you tell them?

Speaker 1: 42:42

Never give up, because I think from the bottom of my heart, like I always knew, that I should be free and I just giving up wasn't an option for me. And I think they have to stay persistent. They have to write people If you don't have anyone helping you, because there'll be these down periods where we may not have nothing in court or we may not even have an attorney and we just be sitting there Right. Every legal help firm that it is somebody is going to respond because somebody is also trying to build their career and they're looking for a case like that to do pro bono, because another thing is we don't have the funds to pay attorneys, so we have to find people that's willing to take our cases pro volno and just help us to help build their careers as well.

Speaker 1: 43:28

But they definitely. They have to stay the course. Like don't sit in there and don't get depressed, cause we get on this rollercoaster where we might have something good happen in court and now we on this high, high, then they deny it. Now we on this low, low, like we have to stay balanced and be like I'm not going to ever get too high, I'm not going to get too low, I'm going to stay the course and I'm going to see this stuff through. So I think my best advice to them is don't ever give up. Keep fighting for your freedom.

Speaker 2: 43:56

So for you, what does healing look like today?

Speaker 1: 43:59

Healing for me looks like change. Like I just want to see society change the way they perceive us, and when I say us, I mean like when does our census start and when does it end? Like you have a lot of people that come home and they've been home 20, 30 years and they still go through the same issues they went through when they were 18, 19 years old, but now they're 40-something and they're actually doing good in life the last 20 years and you still hold them. So it's like I just want to see like some type of restorative justice where they do understand that we had a capacity to change and that we are capable of changing, because a lot of us didn't choose that lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 44:44

A lot of that stuff chose us because of the neighborhoods and the issues that we grew up around and we've come, we've started to be in survival mode as opposed to living and just knowing that. For every kid like that ends up making a mistake. Something happened to that kid and I think we have to start digging into that and figuring. Something happened to that kid and I think we have to start digging into that and figuring out what happened to this kid when he wanted to hurt somebody, because I now understand that hurt people, hurt people Like people that aren't hurting. Don't go out and hurt people. Most of the people that are hurting people have been hurt before and it may be indirect trauma, right but something happened in their life where it changed how they see life and how they view life. I think as a society we got to get better at not giving up on people and really giving people that second and third chance sometimes to see that their true potential and see that they can actually change.

Speaker 2: 45:42

So do you still visit the neighborhood where you grew up, do you have connections there, or do you even still live there? What is your relation now with the neighborhood?

Speaker 1: 45:53

I actually live in Texas now, but I definitely go back to my neighborhood Like we do like a neighborhood picnic every year where the kids come out and we have a jumpy house and stuff. I've done book bag giveaways and stuff in my neighborhood before and I need to get back to doing more of that. But, like, when I left Chicago I was doing virus prevention work. So I was doing work in another community that wasn't the one I come from, but they all had the same ills and the same problems. So I'm definitely into giving back to the community and being there for the youth that haven't figured it out yet, because sometimes our light bulb go off and we be a little bit older than we should be and I think just for them to know that somebody cares and somebody is watching and somebody is listening if they need someone to talk to.

Speaker 2: 46:42

And how is the neighborhood now? Is it better?

Speaker 1: 46:47

talk to them. And how is the neighborhood now? Is it better? It's been, it's been gentrified, so it's definitely different now than it was when I was out, but it still has its problems, like because it's still like little pockets of guys that still be up there. Um, I think the one thing that I like is that they do give me the time. If I'm trying to talk to them and trying to show them something different or what's in store for them, that they listen. But the neighborhood has definitely changed tremendously because I ended up, my mother moved me and my brother to the north side of Chicago, so we were like right down the street from Wrigley Field, so it was a melting pot of cultures and people there. But the neighborhood is definitely it's totally different from what it was back in the late 80s and early 90s.

Speaker 2: 47:35

So for people who are listening or watching, what do you think they should do to support the justice reform and the work that you're doing?

Speaker 1: 47:47

I think be open minded and don't wait until it directly affects your family to get in, to get involved, and I think a lot of people don't get involved because it doesn't impact them. I have, I have a friend that was a juvenile lifer. He's the executive director of Illinois Restored Justice now and I mean like he goes to Springfield and sits down with the legislators and he's testifying in juvenile courts Like you got guys who was 15 that they were given natural life. This is a 15-year-old kid. You don't think you think that he knew what he was doing that day or could rationalize that. This is something I shouldn't be doing.

Speaker 1: 48:27

And I think like they're really starting to change up there a lot because they're giving. They brought back the juvenile parole board. They're trying to get back to the adult parole board and just knowing that, get involved, like if there's anything that you can do, like don't wait till it hits your doorstep to get involved. Because the one thing that I always understood was these guys that they're taking away 85% of them are being released one day. So you want them to have the resources and the things they need to get reactivated to society or they're going to go back to what they know which is robbing, stealing and whatever else they may be doing. So just getting involved and being a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

Speaker 2: 49:11

Yeah, and where can people find your book now for people who are listening and are watching? Is it on Amazon, barnes Noble? And how can they get in touch with you if they have questions of our reporters listening to this? Well, the book is still on Amazoncom. It's on Barnes Noble. How can they get in touch with you if they have questions of our reporters listening to this?

Speaker 1: 49:27

Well, the book is still on Amazoncom. It's on Barnes Noble, and then we have a website, the Hazel Boys T-H-E-H-A-Z-E-L-B-O-Y-Zcom. We can be reached through there and that goes for me and any of my co-authors, right Like we all have access and get reports from that website. But the book is there and I think it's definitely a learning tool that I think everybody should go out and get, just to know like these things do happen and there's something, there's a lot that can be done to prevent them from happening.

Speaker 2: 50:03

Well, what a story, Dion. And again sorry for what you went through and I wish you the best of luck in your journey to heal and find happiness and enjoy your time with your grandkids. And thank you so much for joining me today and I love chatting with you and I learned a lot. And I loved chatting with you and I learned a lot and I'm sure the listeners and the viewers will learn a lot from hearing your story and let's hope that someday nobody will go through what you went through and I wish you the best of luck and, for anyone who's listening or watching, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Read and Write with Natasha and until we meet again, thank you.

Speaker 1: 50:51

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 50:56

Thank you for tuning in to Read and Write with Natasha. I'm your host, natasha Tynes. If today's episode inspired you in any way, please take the time to review the podcast. Remember to subscribe and share this podcast with fellow book lovers. Until next time. Happy reading, happy writing. Thank you.