Read and Write with Natasha

The intricate world of Arabic children's literature

September 14, 2023 Natasha Tynes Episode 32
The intricate world of Arabic children's literature
Read and Write with Natasha
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Read and Write with Natasha
The intricate world of Arabic children's literature
Sep 14, 2023 Episode 32
Natasha Tynes

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In this episode, Egyptian children's author Miranda Beshara talks about her transition from finance to storytelling.  Miranda is the co-founder of Hadi Badi Children & YA Lit in Arabic.

She also talks about her first children's book, Tata and Babcha, and how it's a vessel for preserving her family's culture and identity. 

We also discussed tackling the labyrinth that is Arabic publishing and the complexities of sourcing books for young kids. 

Miranda's insightful perspective on the disjunction between classical and colloquial Arabic will leave you intrigued. 

Tune in to learn about the intricate world of Arabic children's literature.


Support the Show.

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➡️ P.S: If you find my content useful, you might want to check out my Substack newsletter, in which I talk and vent about the writing life:


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Send us a Text Message.

In this episode, Egyptian children's author Miranda Beshara talks about her transition from finance to storytelling.  Miranda is the co-founder of Hadi Badi Children & YA Lit in Arabic.

She also talks about her first children's book, Tata and Babcha, and how it's a vessel for preserving her family's culture and identity. 

We also discussed tackling the labyrinth that is Arabic publishing and the complexities of sourcing books for young kids. 

Miranda's insightful perspective on the disjunction between classical and colloquial Arabic will leave you intrigued. 

Tune in to learn about the intricate world of Arabic children's literature.


Support the Show.

****************************************************************************

➡️ P.S: If you find my content useful, you might want to check out my Substack newsletter, in which I talk and vent about the writing life:


Speaker 1:

I think it has been changing a lot. The concepts are weaving from a younger age. Younger parents are becoming more and more aware of the benefits of weaving and it's impact on cognitive development and also success in school and education, etc.

Speaker 2:

Hi friends, this is Read and Write with Natasha podcast. My name is Natasha Tynes and I'm an author and a journalist. In this channel, I talk about the writing life, review books and interview authors. Hope you enjoy the journey. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Read and Write with Natasha.

Speaker 2:

So today we have with us Egyptian children's author, miranda Bishara. In 2019, miranda published her first children's book, tata and Babisha. How do you call her name? Babisha Babcha? Yes, okay, I have it here. So her first children's book, tata and Babcha, which is Kitchen Tales from Egypt, poland and Syria. In 2022, she wrote her second book and illustrated a story for young adults entitled Jamila Bishara also recently translated a junior novel from French to Arabic.

Speaker 2:

So, miranda, so happy to have you here and thank you for sending me the book Tata and Babcha, and I enjoyed reading it. So thank you for having me, of course. Of course, my pleasure. So before we start talking about your books, I want to just take a step back and talk about you a bit. So when we first met, you know, on a personal level, you were working in the field of microfinance, so you know, now it seems that you pivoted to becoming a storyteller, which is, you know, an interesting shift. So I want to hear from you why did you decide to make the shift from finance to storytelling, and how did that happen?

Speaker 1:

Right, well when we met, yes, I was working in the field of microfinance, but I was still a storyteller, because I think we're all storytellers when we work in the communications field.

Speaker 1:

So when we met, I was the Arabic editor of the Fingdaf Gateway, which is a knowledge platform managed by a group put in a wood bank called Seagap, and it basically has information around financial inclusion and microfinance in Arabic for the Arabic speaking world. And this job involved you know, as you know very well, that we work together, closely together, like news and newsletter writing, blogs, interviewing, etc. So I honestly feel like the set of skills in a way are there, the core skills of you need to have a good story to tell so people would read your article, read your blog, would engage with you and find your content engaging. So, that said, I feel like I had the skills or the set of content how to say competences there for writing, but I guess I was interested in telling a different story. So that's why I decided to switch and pivot, as we said, and kind of be more creative and write stories and be engaged in the children's literature here more and more than just writing in microfinance and financial Fascinating.

Speaker 2:

So why children's book? Why did you go to that genre instead of adult book or fiction or nonfiction?

Speaker 1:

Well, the story started with my first book, which was kind of a personal memoir in a way, told from the perspective of my daughter. So it was the questions of my daughter that kind of encouraged me to write that first book. And then, because I live abroad with my two children and I was very keen to keep the Arabic language and heritage of culture alive, and one way or medium of doing that in addition of, you know, to get home in Arabic etc is through books and reading books and children's books.

Speaker 1:

I was always on the hunt and the lookout for good quality, engaging, nice children's books, and it's a scared commodity, I would say sometimes, but in the recent years there are a lot of publishers in the Arab world that are producing really great, great children's books. So at that point, when I was, my kids were younger I started to kind of share whatever book I would find in Arabic that is nice and share it among you know community of other like-minded people, people who are living in the Basra, etc. And this is by little. I found that people do not know that children's books, good quality children's books, in Arabic exist, not only the people living abroad, but also people living in, you know, egypt or Jordan, etc. Because the concepts are breathing for pleasure and reading a book for children outside of the school curriculum. It's not that widespread in our region, unfortunately.

Speaker 1:

So the concept of bedtime story it was more of an ornithy. I think we all have souvenirs or memories of our grandmothers or mothers or fathers sending us more oral stories, you know, before bedtime stories, but nobody would take a book really and read, except very few exceptions. So this concept of I made me think that this is a field I would like to be more involved in, share more information about, so both as a writer, as a translator, and also as a book mediator, meaning like giving tips on how to book to parents, educators, etc. And this is how we created or I created, in the partnership with two other ladies, our initiative, which is called Heidi Beidi, that we share book reviews, book list recommendations. So back to your initial questions.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, I go in broad. So I started writing for children. It was based on the questioning of my daughter, who kept asking me also questions about her identity, growing up abroad, where I am from, etc. Etc. Etc. So I decided to, and our family and my husband and I will come from a mix of cultures and religions and we wanted to kind of I wanted to write about this in an accessible way and kind of started as a person that documented the documentation project. It wasn't the purpose at the beginning to publish a book. Really, I was just doing it for my family. But then a different of mine worked in the field of children's research. I mean, she told me this would make a great book. You should go for it. So I interviewed the grandmothers. My daughter and I sat together. We wrote all the questions that she would ask her grandmothers. Next trip we went and we interviewed the grandmothers. I had this whole body of audio files of interviews. I started writing.

Speaker 1:

I wasn't sure what would bring the stories together. I kept thinking about it for a while until at the end I decided that I think we're all come together around food, around the family table, regardless of our origins. We always like to share recipes. We like to eat together in all sorts of events and family events and moments. So I decided that food would be like the line that connects all the different stories in the book and kind of it seems like an appetizer or an encree and then the main dish and a dessert in a way. So this is how it flows from one country to the other, from one drama to the other, and I was lucky also that I had an excellent publisher who was very enthusiastic about it.

Speaker 1:

So I got introduced to her by this friend who works in the children's literature field and she got really excited about the book and we worked together. I think it took us like maybe three years or so to get it out in the light, from the minute I started writing it until it got published and published and also the adventure is completed or the book also in itself is kind of a journey, visual journey. Working with the illustrator, we wanted to have a special kind of illustration that is a mix between a journal, maybe a collage, a travel log, a recipe book, so kind of this how to make all this come together. So we worked and worked with Hibahalipa, who is an excellent visual artist, and she really nailed it. She went to the grandmother houses, she photographed little objects here and there and, as you can see in the book you will find mixes of different kinds of photo, collages and drawings etc.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's very visually appealing. And you mentioned something very important, which is the concept of reading before bed. Right, and yes, the oral storytelling. Like I remember, my grandfather, jiddo, used to tell us a story every night before we go to bed and we all, until now, we remember it as adults and we tell it to each other, when we just laugh about it. But I don't have memory of my parents reading to me before bed because, as you said, that's really not in our culture or not in maybe it's not common, but that was back when, like, let's say, 40 years ago, right?

Speaker 1:

How many years?

Speaker 2:

ago. But did the things change, you think, now? Do you think parents, younger parents now, are doing that, and are they doing that in Arabic or in English? Because, as you mentioned, the availability of Arabic children book, all of that? So I just want to hear from you, since you're the expert, where we are in terms of reading to children before bed in the Arab world, or at least in the area where you're familiar with, because the Arab world is not homogeneous, there's different areas. So, from your experience, from your regional experience, what do you think?

Speaker 1:

So first, going back, I think I was a bit lucky that I was. My mom used to read books to me, but growing up, but I don't want to say, but she's not Egyptian, so I don't know if this is related to the Arab culture or not, but maybe let's stop this. Let me think I don't want to sound like a culturally, I'm just thinking. So I think it has been changing a lot. The concepts are reading from a younger age. Younger parents are becoming more and more aware of the benefits of reading, it's impact on cognitive development and also success in school and education.

Speaker 1:

So I feel like there's more and more awareness nowadays for that it could be done. I feel it's done more in English and other languages than in Arabic in our region, but I think there are more and more initiatives and more and more books coming out and more and more people encouraging also bedtime stories in Arabic. So I think it's changing slowly and also there's a big movement. Some publishers are publishing.

Speaker 1:

As you know, the Arab language has this problem of the glossia. I don't know if you know it. It's having two different levels of Arabic. You have the Futhal or the written Classical Arabic and then you have the dialect, which is the spoken Arabic. In different countries you have different dialects, even though we understand each other because of media and TV etc. But for the younger parents, usually that's the challenge of an Arabic children's book. For a younger age, they want to have a fun book, a rhyming book, a book that is in a language that is accessible to young children, and I think people are realizing that. And one more, whether they're publishers or self publishers that are publishing now books I'm talking about preschoolers, you know, like some years books that are more in colloquial dialects, that are rhyming, that are more closer to the children's environment.

Speaker 1:

And then when the child goes to school and gets exposed to Arabic, you know, as a language at school. I think here comes also the company we need to at home, at school, to have a place for, and the role of public libraries and bookstores to have storytelling sessions etc. And so the Arabic language is not alien for the younger generation. So it's not just that language that we study at school and it's the language that is kind of obsolete that you have to learn.

Speaker 1:

We want to. I think there's a movement now to make Arabic more accessible for younger kids.

Speaker 2:

So you think the parents who read to their kids in some areas of the Arab world prefer English because we have sort of like two languages in Arabic, you have like the dialect and then you have the classical Arabic and that deters parents from reading in Arabic because they don't want to get into that, so they switch to English. Is that what's happening?

Speaker 1:

I think they feel it's easier for them and also because it's a lot of effort to find the Arabic book, to get it.

Speaker 1:

And then when they find the Arabic book and it's in, for example, classical Arabic, they will not read it to their kids in classical Arabic, they will translate it into dialect and they feel maybe it's an effort and I feel like maybe parents who live in the Arab region they don't maybe put a lot of effort into that because they see that the kids will get the Arabic anyway from school or from their environment etc.

Speaker 1:

Which is not the case, because we know some kids in the region do not speak Arabic. The kids who are more seen on the Arabic, I feel from what I've seen in my personal experience, are the people who are living abroad who are trying to keep the heritage. I guess they're putting much more effort into sourcing and creating and making sure that Arabic is fun and engaging for their children. I'm not saying that there are infants like that in the Arab region. I don't want to make a blanket statement, but I feel like the needs are different and the approach is different depending on your situation and how you value the language and the culture and how you want to transmit it.

Speaker 2:

I would say yeah, and so what is the status of Arabic publishing? Are the majority of books being published the children's book in classical Arabic, or are there books that are published in the local dialects? Do you think we need to push for more local dialect in order to encourage people to read, or not?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think, the more the merrier on all levels. Okay, so I think, unfortunately there is no source or like an official source that could tell us, you know statistics how many. We have books every year, etc. But you can follow and see, because now it started like 10 years ago.

Speaker 1:

There is a big digital size which is for children's literature, which is called the Salat Award that is out of the Emirates by the UAE, which is a local chapter of this international organization called EBE, which is the International Board for Books for Children, for Young People, anyway. So this regional prize actually made a lot of how to say, a big leap or development in the field of children's literature in the region because it encouraged authors, its publishers, to produce good quality children's books. There's a lot of debate about, you know, are people doing books to win prizes, you know, or they're doing books for actual children and you know what they need. So that will leave this debate aside. But what I'm saying is, in general, any publisher would like, will be very hesitant to publish a book in colloquial dialects because they want to market. It's already very difficult to sell children's books, so they want to have a wider market beyond their borders, so they want to have a common language that is accessible by the whole region, you know. So that's why the classical Arabic is still strong, and also some schools they also get the books, so they need to be in classical Arabic.

Speaker 1:

Yet there's another movement, a parallel movement of, as I said, publishers and who are specialized in colloquial books, or self publishers, you know, like self authors and self publishers who are doing that, but mostly the books are for children, for preschoolers. You know so what I'm trying to say. We need both side by side. We need to have books in colloquial and so the kids could transition from the colloquial to the classical. You know, at some point you have to. Also, there are a lot of common words between the colloquial and classical. So we need to have this graded approach in books. Like you know, in English we have graded readers etc. So this concept of starting from a colloquial simple rhyme to and moving up, you know, to classical Arabic, so little by little it's gaining ground.

Speaker 1:

It's still a lot of resistance against the colloquial books because they say that they will dilute, they will threaten the classical Arabic. You know the language of poetry and literature and you know all the arguments, but what we're saying is we don't do the colloquial books. I mean by we, the people working in the field of children's literature, and I could mention a few. There's a Tuta Tuta, there's a Akhura books, there is a I don't want to forget anyone LibLib publishing. So there are different books publishers coming out with colloquial books and their argument is you need to get Arabic books closer to younger children so they engage with their language from an early age. Then the transition will be easier into classical Arabic instead of introducing them to classical Arabic at the age of what six, seven, while they didn't have any exposure before to Arabic in a fun way. So that's the argument basically.

Speaker 2:

Fascinating you also mentioned self publishing that there are people self publishing. What is the status of self publishing in the Arab words, if you can talk about it? Because are they using Amazon, or is there a lot doing that? Or where do we stand when it comes to self publishing?

Speaker 1:

And there's a mix between Amazon and between just printing. You know, I'm not sure. I know that Tuta Tuta prints not to Amazon but prints through. I think everybody prints in China, I think. But, yeah, because it's Tuta, but I'm not sure. I don't want to say incorrect information, but, as I said, because a lot of the established publishers, children's publishers, are reluctant to publish in colloquial in particular, that a lot of people who want to write books in colloquial Arabic they self publish or they establish their own publishing house.

Speaker 2:

And so for you, for both of your books, you went with a traditional publisher, correct?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I write more for the age group, which is the middle kind of middle grade. It's the young adult like the between the top is so in a way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so that's my first book. I went to Al-Balsam in Egypt, which is an Egyptian publishing house specialized in children and young adults books, and the second book, actually it was a call for books, for writers to submit stories, and it was the Palestine Writing Workshop, which is a publisher in Palestine, a Palestinian publisher that produces and publishes great quality books, and so I just applied with the idea and they liked it and I got accepted. And then we worked it on it together to develop it into Jamila.

Speaker 2:

So if you can tell us a bit about your second book, jamila I haven't read it, but my understanding it's about the body image of young Arab women or if you can just tell us a bit about it and the idea and what inspired you to write this book.

Speaker 1:

I've been always thinking about writing a book about self-image for young girls in a way, growing up in the Arab region and then also this delicate phase of being a teenager and kind of your body is changing and people commenting on your looks all the time, 24-7. So I've been grappling with this issue and when I found this opportunity I started writing this book and it's a story that takes place in one day, about the girl whose name is Jamila and she kind of speaks out a bit because every week she's invited to family lunch at her aunt and every time she gets comments about her looks, why your hair is all messed up. From her grandmother she tells her why you don't wear lenses? Why do you have pimples on your face? Oh, you're going to wait. No, you don't even ask why you?

Speaker 1:

know all these questions that we all know very well. So I did it in a kind of funny way in a way, and so it takes. You know I will send you a copy of the book so you can read it. Anyway, she goes through the comments and in a way in the book I made her answer back, like she gets flashbacks of the situation and then back in the situation and she answers, and I wanted to give young girls tools on how to answer such comments in a way.

Speaker 1:

And also she gets subjected to some verbal harassment on the street and commenting, you know that we get subjected to. But the surprise was that some friends of mine, who are the new girl because I didn't specify in the story that it takes place in a certain country, so I left it a bit open, on purpose, you know and then to discover later from some friends who I showed the book to and explained to them and translated, and they told me I went through the same experience and they're not, you know, in Saudi Arab. You know they could be, I think I had a French friend or an Italian friend and a Spanish friend and they all kind of went through this at some point of their lives. You know this, commenting about their, their work, subjected always to this, comments about our look, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I still get people still comment on my looks until now.

Speaker 1:

It stays until now.

Speaker 2:

I always comment on my weight whenever I travel to Jordan.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think it's yeah, it stays until now, but I guess the moral of the story is also at the end. There is this notion also of unconditional love and how to appreciate what you're, in a way to kind of maybe. I'll show you this one image because I think of all the negative comments and all the doubts when I wrote the text and Khalid Jarada is the illustrator, who did a great job that all the thoughts are like little cockroaches. You know that come to her head, you know. So it's the visual, the visual. I really wanted to work. I love graphic novels and I feel like they're such powerful tools and I think we need more of them for, you know, young adults and even, you know, middle graders. So I feel like always, the visual aspect in presents is really very important.

Speaker 2:

So yeah. So I want to talk a bit about the marketing aspect of your book. How are you marketing your books? Did you hire a marketing company? Are you doing the marketing yourself? Is it the publisher? I mean, how are you spreading the word about you know your work?

Speaker 1:

That's a very good question and unfortunately this is one of the big points in the industry. I would say In that region that we need more of maybe agents and marketeers that would bring forth.

Speaker 1:

You know such books and authors and organize tools and organize events. For now it's really at the initiative of each publishing house and their capacity Some are better than others and also the initiative of the author and such really not organized in any way or matter, or there are no clips, I would say journey or route. You know, like that, you need to do this, you need to do that, one, two, three or you know it's not clear at all. So it's really left to each one, each one to its own. Of course, social media and of course you know Zoom and online.

Speaker 1:

You know there's more and more online events now and speaking of which, like my publisher for Danila, is organizing a book launch, an online book launch and discussion, and I am also invited at the bookstore to talk about the book, but it's all really depends on your initiative as an author and your connections, and also how the publisher organizes such events and their connections.

Speaker 2:

But have you been doing lots of social media push, or like you yourself, or or you know you're struggling with that. You know what is, you know how like, what is like for you, what worked the best in terms of spreading the word about your book?

Speaker 1:

I think I always feel that I can, I need to do more, but I'm always shy because I think it's us as women I don't know if this is us as women, or that we always take in a back or we don't speak in a comfortable manner or comfortably about our work. And I personally, I am not the best person. I'm always shy to speak about what I do. But if there's an article written about me or an event, I would share it and that's it.

Speaker 1:

But I think I see other people who are doing better, like they have an author's page, you know, or a website, and they're doing stuff, so you know, promoting their work. But so far I'm not sure if I've even promoted my work or not. I'm just doing stuff and I don't have a public profile, kind of author profile. I always tell myself I need to do that, but I feel like I'm still at the beginning because I just got started and I just have to go under my belt and a third one that's translated and another one that I'm working on.

Speaker 1:

So I feel like I'm still I'm not worthy of having like a website or doing stuff. You know what I mean? That I feel like I always just have constant, constant, constant roam and away, because I just of course of course you're worthy.

Speaker 2:

I mean you already published two books. I mean that is prime time to have a website, so don't sell yourself short. So, in terms of the feedback, what kind of feedback did you get on the books Did you have to deal with? I'm hoping you know everything was great, but you know, sometimes as authors it's it's part of the journey is we get negative feedback. Did you get any negative feedback and how did you deal with it and what was it about?

Speaker 1:

So far, I didn't get any kind of direct negative feedback. I, to be honest, I haven't had this so far. People like the books, but what I feel is there are grown ups liking the book. You know. What I'm missing is to hear the opinion of the young leaders as a person's author. It's always the challenge to who would you read at the end and how do you get their feedback?

Speaker 1:

And you get the feedback usually through you know events and book signings and you know when you meet with children who read your books. Unfortunately, I didn't have this because my book just came just before Corona, before COVID, came out, and so we had a lot of things planned but they were put on hold and then you know like happens and I didn't get a chance to do events with children in the Arab region, for example, but I did some here in France, where I live, and it was a good, you know reception. It spoke to a lot of people who are coming from different cultures, different backgrounds.

Speaker 1:

So that was nice. But I haven't, and the other book just came out, so, as I say, it's all so fresh. Until now I haven't had a chance. I really wish I could get the feedback of younger readers who read the book and how they felt about you know. Do they connect with it? Do they feel it's a good book or not? You know, did they speak to them? Was it boring, so or not, or maybe so? That's also another thing. As a children's author, this connection with your audience is important and unfortunately, until now I didn't have this opportunity to step them like loan message here and there from friends who whose daughter or son appreciated the book, but I didn't have this engagement yet. So, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question, but I didn't get any kind of feedback from my targeted readers.

Speaker 2:

In a way, yeah, yeah, did you try giving it to libraries in the Arab world, school libraries and all of that?

Speaker 1:

Well, as an author, it's not to me that should be doing that. I think my publisher is doing that, so it's also the school, the different schools within the industry is, and some people you know wait at the school, contact them. But I know that my publishers are both publishers I work with are very keen on, you know, getting the books out and you know doing bookshares and but sometimes the libraries you know the school libraries or the public libraries do not know about books, and so there's a lot of work that needs to be done to schools, I would say, and in some countries it's better than others.

Speaker 1:

Unfortunately, egypt is not that great in that sense, but I know that, for example, in the UAE, maybe in Jordan and Palestine, in Lebanon, there's more connection with public libraries and school libraries.

Speaker 2:

So, for anyone who wants to get into the world of publishing children's books in Arabic, what kind of advice would you give them?

Speaker 1:

Okay. The advice I would give them is to first of all get familiar with what's being offered, what's the offer out there. Read lots of books. Think of yourself as a child and what kind of books you would have like to read as a child. Always think when you write, don't write from your perspective. Write from the child's perspective or whoever is your main character or which each group you're writing for, and also use the language that is appropriate to that age group and avoid preaching and giving moral lessons. That's also another thing, and I would say we are missing a lot of. It would be nice to have more funny, funny, funny Arabic books for children.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's wonderful. So what does the future hold for Miranda Bishara? What do you have in the pipeline?

Speaker 1:

So I'm working on a middle grade series now this time inspired by my son because I did the first book and kind of the second book, a female character and I'm trying to write now from the perspective of a 10-year-old boy Somewhere in the series with, again, darryl Belfam. So hopefully by next year we'll have the first two books out. So yeah, crossing my fingers. What are they about? So it's a boy, a 10-year-old boy, who lives in Cairo, and both through different it tackles a lot of different things.

Speaker 1:

Each book has a different theme or different topic and he has his little cat, which is our cat, Philphe.

Speaker 2:

I said Philphe.

Speaker 1:

Coffee don't, and yeah. So some adventures, and through the adventures we discover some fun facts and also some issues that he goes through as he like, related to friendship, related to his self-image, also related to power dynamics, general rules, cultural traditions, things like that. I'm still in the process of writing, so it's changing a little bit, but that's the framework, the general framework, you're busy Sorry.

Speaker 1:

You're busy? Yeah, because I think that age group in between middle-grade don't have a lot of fun books for them in Eric. So I'm trying to kind of fill the gap, not alone, but there are lots of people also other great authors and writers doing that. But you know, we'll see. And also because my son is upset that I didn't get a reply by him.

Speaker 2:

I bet so Miranda. Any final thoughts on the publishing, the writing routines, anything like that, before we conclude?

Speaker 1:

I'm learning a lot from you. You're inspiring me, thank you. Thank you, yeah, because I'm really bad with routines and I'm more of a person who, like I get an idea, then I sit and write. But if I think now I need to, with more you know the series and more words coming along. If I want to write more books, I think I need to have a more kind of disciplined routine, you know.

Speaker 1:

So this is my resolution for the coming years to try to be more organized in terms of time management and routine. If you have any tips for me, that would be great. And yeah, and I think just my advice is if anybody is interested in the field of Arabic children's books, just get yourself somebody's eyes at what you can. You have the social media and website of Heidi Daisy, for example. There are all other great publishers in the Arab region. There is the Esfasalat Award that you could check the social media as well, so and also all kinds of independent publishers out there who are doing great job in both colloquial and classical Arabic.

Speaker 2:

Great. So, miranda, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for your time and thank you for sending me the book and looking forward to reading more of your work, and best of luck to you and for everyone who's listening or watching. Thank you for listening to another episode of Read and Write with Natasha and, until we meet again, thank you, thank you.

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